Saturday, December 16, 2006

Reading Assignment

This. I've been holding off linking it because I wanted to wait until I had time to add a remark or two of my own, but I don't want it to get lost or buried in my bookmarks. It's too good for that:

This started - or was finally triggered yesterday - by a post and the associated comments on a topic I actually have very little interest in: divorce. Villainous Company: Idiot... Suffice it to say, I found the vehemence of the attacks out of line considering that not one of the commenters were directly impacted by anything in the situation. Except of course that most of the commenters are firmly in the marriage/fidelity population and look askance at anyone considering divorce. No, that isn't strong enough. Ad hominem attacks, vehement attacks, proclaiming that their concept of marriage was right, and any other viewpoint was stupid or evil or whatever.

So for now, just read it.

(I admit I like it especially because the post Deb takes issue with, partly for the "vehemence of the attacks" within it and the comments, was written by a longstanding proponent of civility, or, translated into reality-speak, "I do so wish that Democrats would not call me names. It's really mean of those uncouth assholes." But I am notoriously uncivil that way.)

UPDATE: A few of my thoughts on this--not the ones I'd been meaning to get to originally, but for now they'll do.


Zendo Deb said...

Oh, it gets better... my rant got a response to which I responded, to which she responded....

Anyway I keep telling myself that it just doesn't matter...

Except of course when that whole crew lines to turn back the clock on individual liberties.

As I said, most Repubs want to control the individual just as much as the Dems do - just from a different point of view.

beth said...

I think both of you read your own anger into Cass's post.
Plus, about 1/2 of the Cotillion is divorced - so where do you get the idea we are all pro marriage at any cost?

I think Cass was simply saying that the woman in question was going to break up a marriage without making any attempt to make it better.

I guess to some people, promises don't mean anything anymore.

Darleen said...

As I said, most Repubs want to control the individual just as much as the Dems do - just from a different point of view.

Someday, Deb, you need to learn to grasp the concept that expressing an opinion on behavior is not the same as demanding a legislative solution.

Cassandra no where even alluded to have Big Sister step in and use the LAW to correct this woman's behavior.

But hey, if you want to believe that campus speech codes, running military recruiters/ROTC off college campuses, removing any historical religious symbol off city or county seals is the work of Republicans......

btw, ever get the ip address?

Mark S. said...

But hey, if you want to believe that campus speech codes, running military recruiters/ROTC off college campuses, removing any historical religious symbol off city or county seals is the work of Republicans......

Ah, Darleen, you have been missed. Your ability to string non-sequiturs that have nothing to do with the original post is almost, shall we say, Gary Ruppertisque. But what is the point of your comment? This parade of terribles, has anyone ever accused the Republicans of being responsible for them? No, that's the work of us evil liberals. Our sole goal is to make sure you never celebrate Christmas again (and it would have worked, if it weren't for that pesky Bill O'Reilly and his gang, especially that damn Scrappy Doo).

Here's how that comment should have gone:

But hey, if you want to believe that the erosion of habeas corpus, idiotic war decisions, spiraling deficits, incompetent responses to natural disasters, and horrible approval ratings is the work of Republicans......

well, you'd be right.

Zendo Deb said...

I never said the Cotillion was about "marriage at any cost." Though Casandra was at one point talking about "a vow is a vow" implying that it should be MUCH harder to break a marriage contract.

And while Cassandra and Co. were not advocating doing anything, Fred Phelps certainly is. When he isn't tearing into to gays for destroying the sanctity of marriage, he tears into the horrible situation brought about by no-fault divorce. Maybe there isn't a legislative action yet, but I believe there is a move afoot to do something in Texas. As I said in the post, divorce isn't a topic that interests me much.

If she doesn't want to "do something" about the situation in question, why get so worked up? And the calling of the woman in question an "Idiot" is an attempt to do something. A virtual scarlet "A" or a scarlet "I" at least. Or to convince people to act in certain ways - even if not trying to convince this particular woman.

Getting worked up is usually prelude to working on something.

And yes, I do see a lot of people on the Right fomenting "righteous indignation" about one thing or another - gay marriage, gay rights, the Schiavo case, assisted suicide, ... The Left does exactly the same thing about a different set of topics - smoking, motorcycle helmets, trans-fats, fur,...

In most of these cases, after the righteous indignation goes on long enough, legislation is proposed. They haven't gotten there on fur yet, but do you think PETA and company would hesitate to get government involved if they thought they had a chance? Do you think they would stick to "moral persuasion" if they could reach for government coercion? And yes, I do take (almost) every opportunity to call attention to the fact the PETA is being indignant as a prelude to more direct action - though they haven't crossed my attention threshold in a few months now.

Yes, keeping promises is important to me. I make few, and try to see that they are carried through. What I said was (using the quote about the timber in your own eye and the mote in your neighbor's eye to make the point) it is up to me to keep my promises and vows, and deal with the people who make promises to me and either do or do not keep them. It isn't up to me to see to it that YOU keep YOUR vows. I have enough on my plate leading my own life.

I also pointed out, that Tristan and Isolde, one of the primary stories of western civilization - or it was when people read and studied stories like that - dealt specifically with the question of romantic love vs. the Marriage vow. I won't repeat what I said, because no one cared then, and I doubt anyone cares now and if anyone does care it is all over at Casandra's place anyway. Still, since the time that gave us the stories of King Arthur & Co. people have been discussing individual rights vis a vie public commitments. Western Civilization came down on the side of the individual ahead of the group.

Oh, and I posted the IP address at 12:50 this afternoon. (approximately 8 minutes after you asked.)

ilyka said...

btw, ever get the ip address?

She posted it. Over at her blog. Where discussions of that troll (you know, the one who linked his blog in the URL field, the one who's known for following Beth around like a lovesick puppy, the one who's from Nebraska, just like the IP Deb posted was?) should be occurring.

And then again maybe they shouldn't, because this is all so perfectly emblematic of the problem I have with some of you. I'm horrified by your behavior over that comment--yours particularly, Darleen, with that idiotic it-must-be-a-frame-up horseshit, but Beth's also, by what she hasn't done.

See, there have been many, many times that I have had to apologize for things I shouldn't have said or done online, even though it's humiliating and embarrassing and all that shit. But none of you proud wielders of the torch of moral outrage will step up to the plate and say something like, "You know, I had no idea Vinnie was going to post that. But I did lead him over there, and I guess his remarks DO mean I'm friends with a raging hate-filled bigot*, and for that, I AM SORRY."

No. You haven't got the spines for that level of personal accountability, have you? So let's NOT do that. Moral outrage is for scolding other people and certainly never for admitting our own flaws, so let's instead keep throwing out already-debunked speculation about the fucking IP address.

Which, by the way?--It's Vinnie's job to make a fuss if he didn't really leave that comment, not yours. But then, you know, Beth knows, and I know that Vinnie isn't going to claim a set-up, because Vinnie isn't ashamed of that comment. He's PROUD of it. It's only embarrassing for you because it KIND of torpedoes your whole "we're not intolerant" act.

Really sucks when fellas won't be team players and help you keep the mask in place, doesn't it?

Anyway. I give it two days, max, before you turn this into a big sob story about how you begged and begged and begged Deb to post the IP address, but goldurnitall, she refused! Why would she do a thing like that?!?

See, I've seen that movie too, plus a couple sequels--the ones your boss directed, Darleen. They're classics of the genre.

*Lest there be any doubt, this is my definition of "raging, hate-filled bigot."

ilyka said...

I think Cass was simply saying that the woman in question was going to break up a marriage without making any attempt to make it better.

I guess to some people, promises don't mean anything anymore.

I can see that point well enough, and it's a good one.

Problem is, I couldn't make it past the first couple of paragraphs of that post, because if you're honestly supposed to thank your husband for not leaving you--excuse me; for "staying around at all"--in order to "make it better," you are one no-confidence-having sadsack of a woman. Why not just apologize for existing in the first place?

From what I could tell of the original article, though, that woman should never have married her husband to begin with. It's the old "marry in haste, repent at leisure" thing that people really need to quit doing. Commitments need to be considered thoroughly before they're made, rather than after. On that, at least, I think we're probably on the same page.

Hubris said...

Of course Ilyka Damen (I like a demon, ooh, so scary) is going to scream HOMOPHOBE over what I wrote, and frankly, I could give less than a fuck.

It's interesting how this rhetorical method has become sort of a stupidity-powered shield against being called what you truly are, e.g.: "Ohhhh, I said 'nigger' so I guess now you're going to call me a RAAAACIST!"

Yep, you called it, asshole.

ilyka said...

Because sooner or later someone's going to get all excited about teh hypocrisy!!1!, this comment exists to note that yes indeed I surely did delete one of my own comments, because this thing I have commonly termed "a conscience" (that's the thing that makes you feel ashamed of bad behavior, for those of you unfamiliar with the concept) bothered me too much about it.

I ain't in the habit of wishing people dead, and there's no reason to start now. Consider it retracted.

ilyka said...

But just so Hubris' comment makes sense again, here's the link that was in my original comment--Hubris is quoting erudite cornfucker Vinnie.

Darleen said...

Mark S

Funny thing is, in your rework of my comment, your list is urban myth.

ie..there has been no "errosion" of habeous corpus, no spiraling deficit (hell, it's come down amazingly fast), please do cite where any war has gone "as planned" especially with a mainstream media that acts as the PR for the other side, and I'm still amused at the those that equate Bush with Hitler but then hold him responsible when he didn't bodily throw the LA governor out of office and drop the 101st Airborne on New Orleans (btw just WHO was it that let hundreds of buses idle, confiscated guns from legitimate NO gun owners AND who ran with portraying WRONGLY NO as a cesspit of rape and throat slashings giving pause to rescue operations?)

I have no problem with "liberals"... most of them are decent folk with motivations of trying to create good... but classical liberalism has little to do with the cult of the far Left... anti-Christian, anti-Jew (but cover it with being anti-Zionist) anti-American, the personal is political so if you disagree with me you are not an authentic woman/gay/black/et al cult.

Amanda said...

Oh wow, that post was really cruel. And of course, sexist. (Not the one you linked, the one she was responding to.) Interesting how all marriage bed death was considered the woman's responsibility. As someone who's suffered from bed death-ish situations, I guarantee it wasn't lack of trying on my part. But of course, people like that always blame the woman.

The worst situation was my lover who was pretty severely depressed. No, we aren't together. Yes, the desire rollercoaster contributed to that.

Darleen said...

Fred Phelps, Deb??? Fred Phelps??

Do please show me ANYONE right of center that gives that heartless creepizoid one microsecond of support.

good lord.

Darleen said...

I haven't been in a terrible marriage by any means. I'm 36 and have a 1-year-old and a 3-year-old, but met someone who provides me most things lacking in my marriage: Desire, passion, communication, happiness, fun, respectfulness, maturity, responsibility, etc.

Don't get me wrong — my husband is a nice guy and a good dad. I just find that my communication with him is nil. It's pleasant enough, for the most part, but not challenging or interesting.

OMIGOD, it's true! I mean, it is just so obvious that this poor woman is perfectly justified in having an affair...I mean, "nice guy" "not a terrible marriage" "good dad" is all code words for my marriage sucks because it's all HIS fault!

Mothers of little children that are bored and seeking a little excitement in bed hopping should never ever be criticized. If they are, it's because the critic is a sexist and is sucking up to The Patriarchy

Oh thank the goddess I've seen the light.

ilyka said...

Mothers of little children that are bored and seeking a little excitement in bed hopping should never ever be criticized.

Countdown to when you are able to show me where Amanda said that, or prove that she said anything remotely similar: Oh, hell! This stopwatch doesn't go to infinity.

Merri said...


Not that you care (hell...not that *I* care for that matter), but you might try getting your story straight next time.

Vinnie's my husband...has been for 11 years. He's "lovesick" for no one but me. FWIW, Beth didn't have a clue that he was coming over to Deb's site because *I* was the one that sent him the link. What he chose to do there was his own decision (he's a big boy and does what he wants to...doesn't need my blessing or anyone else's).

Sorry that isn't as sordid a tale as you might like, given all the drama unfolding here.

belledame222 said...

Yeah okay. The sanctity of marriage. You know, a good friend of mine is frantically trying to figure out a viable way to stay with his husband (yeah, I said husband) of eight years; if same-sex marriage were legal, partner would've had a green card by now. As it is, he's from Hong Kong, the last of his work visa extensions runs out next month...sayonara, unless they can both figure out how to get jobs in Canada. so far the prospects haven't been great.

But hey, real morality isn't about giving a crap about your friends, people in love trying to actually stay together; real morality is about pearl-clutching and tongue-clicking at anyone who doesn't meet one's own superficial standards of "decency," (which one has conveniently extrapolated to the universal, because one can), never mind what the actual situation is, or what the actual people involved -want.-

and Iraqi lives are not "morally equivalent" (do i remember that catchphrase correctly?) to American lives; and no, of course there is no -immorality- in the pointless stupid hubris-fuelled misery of this war, the exponentially growing wealth gap, the erosion of the Constitution so many people swear up down and sideways makes us Super Great without ever actually having seemed to have read the thing; greed and corruption and venality disguised as piousness; no.

and for the last bloody time ENOUGH with the "anti-Jewish" crap; it's really tiresome.

oh even better; "anti-Jew." look, if you want to whinge about how yer Christianity makes you an endangered species, knock yourself out; but for the love of little plastic baubles -stop- using us to hide your bigotry and rabid warmongering behind. You lot may be friends of Israel for your own purposes, but you ain't no friends of mine. -Ours,- why not. Anyway, shove off.