Sunday, September 10, 2006

Legitimate Anger

So tomorrow is That Day. I didn't participate in the 2996 Project, in which each of the victims of September 11 is profiled by a blogger in detail, because I knew I was inadequate to do it well. Here is someone who did it well, and I'm sure there are many more.

There is still something that bothers me even five years on, something I think I might be better able to clarify now thanks to a commenter at Pandagon. About September 11, Dan of Tinny Words says:

The most notable thing about life since that that day, for me, is that I’ve never felt anger over it, and certainly not fear. Only sadness.

And then that smartass* Auguste adds:

Which, to the wingnuts, makes you less of a person.

I am not in any position to speak for "the wingnuts." I am only able to speak for myself and this is how I feel about it: People grieve differently. People process loss differently. I don't think Dan's less-than for processing that day differently than I did.

I find the K├╝bler-Ross model helpful to illustrate more or less how I grieve. You are probably familiar with it; if not, here's a brief article explaining it, or here is my super-short version. Kubler-Ross enumerated five stages people move through when grieving:

1. Denial.
2. Anger.
3. Bargaining.
4. Depression.
5. Acceptance.

It's a handy enough model, but what often gets left unsaid about it is that not every person experiences all five stages. People also may not move through them in the order listed; they may cycle or bounce back and forth among states. It isn't a linear process.

Again, when I read a comment like Dan's I don't see him as less of a person. I see him as someone who grieves differently than I do. There is nothing wrong with Dan or people like him. And there is nothing wrong with the people for whom anger was an early or prominent reaction on September 11.

I think back to the arguments that occurred regularly in the comments at Michele Catalano's old blog, A Small Victory (now defunct). They occurred mainly between Michele and other commenters (including myself) who were angry; and other commenters who not only weren't angry, but weren't tolerant of anyone else being angry. Not being angry yourself is not a problem. Not tolerating anger from others on the grounds that you're not angry, so why should they be?--Is.

They tried to shame us out of our anger. "It's been a year; isn't it time you moved on?" Or my personal favorite, The Hate Card, would be drawn: "I refuse to let what happened that day fill me with hatred, Michele, and you shouldn't either."

I don't think Michele was filled with hatred and I don't think I was filled with hatred and I don't think most of the ASV commenters were filled with hatred. But what I did see in the time between 2001-2004 were a lot of people, again including myself, who became increasingly resentful about being nagged to relinquish our anger before we were ready to do that. We clung to our anger all the harder as a result. And this should have surprised exactly no one.

You don't jolly someone out of depression by telling them to just quit being depressed. You don't crush someone's denial by telling them to stop denying reality. You don't thwart someone's bargaining by telling them trading is closed for the day. And you don't defuse someone's anger by telling them to quit being angry. To be honest, I'm getting a little angry all over again myself just recalling it. The people who dwell for a time in the stages of grief must be allowed to move through them at their own individual paces. About this I am adamant, not least because attempts to force them through a particular stage faster, attempts to make them bypass a stage completely, usually have the opposite effect from the one intended.

I tried once to write about what got me reading right-wing blogs and why I took comfort from them after September 11. I don't think I did a very good job of it. I'm not good with feelings. But the short version is that weblogs provided an outlet for my anger at a time when it seemed to me that every other form of media (with the possible exception of talk radio, which I have never enjoyed), was telling me that the worst thing an American could do after September 11 was to be angry. Well, I said bullshit to that and I think many people did. And I think that need for an outlet for anger, more than any other reason, is why we've got the idiotic wingnut punditocracy we do today: Because they got the traffic push early from people like myself, people who weren't finished moving through anger yet.

(I also think traffic is on the wane for a lot of them because people are finally finishing up with anger, but that's another post for another day.)

I don't knock Dan. In a way he's a lucky fellow to have been able to skip the anger. Anger is exhausting. I only wish more people who leaned left had been a little less quick to shush the angry, because some anger is legitimate. It is only a problem if one stays stuck in it too long or directs it at the wrong targets.


*Naturally I mean that as a compliment.

60 comments:

belledame222 said...

well, and here we are five years later with even yet more a fuck of a lot more to be angry about.

as someone who's been living in NYC, i think, you know, a lot of us may even have more processing to do (didn't lose anyone personally thank God, but: yeah, close to home, you'd say). those days and weeks and months afterward--well, maybe it was the same all over. anthrax! duct tape! spasms of outrage and loopiness and paralyzing numbness and terror and black pits of despondency and then start all over again!

and now, what is the word? disgust? is that a good word? yeah, i'd say.

impotence, howling frustrating hand-clawing-at-empty-air....gahhhhhhh.

existential bleakness.

shame, yes.

tiny little saplings of hope which keep getting crushed, it feels like.

feeling like the ground has been pulled away.

and much much more!

so: fuck this administration with their grandstanding and their posturing and pulling away the football and trampling all over the fucking place for photo opportunities "hey, let's take it out on the completely wrong country 'cause we were gonna do that at some point anyway;"

fuck the "loyal opposition" for acting like a sack of wet pasta in the face of all this and then wondering why o why don't people have faith in them anymore.

fuck the myopic fucks who simply can't understand -why- anyone in the rest of the world might have any sort of general problem with U.S. policy, particularly -now-;

fuck cynical exploitive sociopaths like Bin Laden (who, again?); fuck our own cynical exploitive sociopath Fearless Leaders; fuck zealous brainwashed ideologues who'd rather be right than live, much less let live; fuck puritans, fuck theocrats of all stripes, fuck Rush Limbaugh and his endless hard-on for the Clintons, oh my GOD fuck that noise, fuck Oliver Stone and his bombastic crap and Kevin Bacon as well, fuck corporations, fuck whited sepulchres, and yes, fuck me too for sitting on my ass in a state of paralyzed numb rage and grief instead of doing anything about it or even beginning to wonder what i -could- do about it, for the vast majority of the time.

"God fuck us, every one."

and happy fucking anniversary to all y'all too, fuckers.

ilyka said...

No! NOT THE BACON!

Oh--KEVIN Bacon. Well, him neither. He just doesn't do it for me.

Chris Clarke said...

I got angry.

I got angry when I heard the first speculation that cross-country flights had been chosen so that the planes would be full of fuel. Blindingly angry at the murderers.

And I was profoundly touched at the global outpouring of support and sympathy, and felt the gliummerings, for the first time in about forty years, of something close to patriotism.

And then Bush pissed it all away -- the global support, the opportunity to neutralize Al Qaeda, my fleeting relative lack of disgust for this country's government -- and I got angry again.

ilyka said...

And then Bush pissed it all away -- the global support, the opportunity to neutralize Al Qaeda, my fleeting relative lack of disgust for this country's government -- and I got angry again.

This is something I did not understood well back then, I think because I am often a moron: That someone could be legitimately angry at the government without hating America.

So while I'm busy noting that I often felt shut down by some on the left, I might as well own up that I doubtless shut down plenty of people myself by denying that such anger could be in any way justifiable.

Roxanne said...

I've witnessed a handful of bloggers move through the EKR stages since 2001 and what I come away with is a tremendous amount of pride at the personal growth they seem to have experienced.

Yeah, I'm looking a you -- a couple of your friends.

Roxanne said...

Wow. If that sounded patronizing, I didn't mean it to be.

ilyka said...

I can't worry about whether you sound patronizing when I apparently just typed "I did not understood" on my blog, Rox. Sober, even.

michele said...

I've finally passed the anger stage, but I will never spend time justifying the anger I had to anyone. It's what I felt.

I'm angry at different things now, but not in such a voracious way.

belledame222 said...

I just reposted my comment here and linked back, btw.

and, well, you know, i will say this for My People, if that is what we are (i.e. the loosely-defined left or at least liberals): we tend to have, my theory by me, "issues" wrt anger. in general, i mean.

you know: it's destructive. it leads to violence. it's IRRATIONAL, and the thing about the loosely-defined...well, a lot of us, really, not actually sure where the ideology markers break down, in fact...but, we have our ideological roots in the Enlightenment. which, lord knows it's not like any of the dudes back then never got angry--witness Voltaire or any of the Founding Fathers--but, you know. -Rational.- Let's all take a deep breath and really examine this in the calm light of day. At least. and, too: we root for the underdog, and, well, it's hard for a lot of people to completely get behind bombing the crap out of people "back to the Stone Age" when they're ALREADY more or less in the Stone Age.

and yes, sure, you get a LOT of anger at the proper targets, esp. among your more radical factions, but you notice it's always directed (in peoples' minds at least--hey, maybe this is a universal thing, at that, who knows)--upward. Fight The Power. not each other. except when we do, and we just can't understand how this happens, can't we all just get along?

so that's one thing.

and then, not to let the rest of y'all off the hook here, yes, it is true, there is i would say an over-reliance on that particular emotion, anger, to the exclusion of more vulnerable-making emotions. as you say: grief, fear, shame, compassion. and hey: anger feels PRODUCTIVE. it feels like you're DOING something. and oh yeah: that feeling, it can also be rather ADDICTIVE. adrenaline rush: duuuuuuude. nice.

but christ forbid we ever break down and see what's BEHIND all that rage.

"Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord."

yeah. terrific. that's been working out so well.

oh, yes, and: Go shopping. Buy something. That, too.

"The lights must never go out.
The music must always play,
Lest we should see where we are;
Lost in a haunted wood,
Children afraid of the dark
Who have never been happy or good..."

midwesterntransport said...

anger is legitimate. my responses after That Day was not that folks shouldn't be angry; it's that folks in power couldn't afford to let anger cloud their decision-making. and that angry folks sometimes don't make very useful or productive decisions.

sometimes anger allows a kind of clarity, and i'm all for righteous anger.

but speaking as someone who was not in NY when that day happened, i personally was petrified that anger and fear were going to be manipulated to cause more pain.

i'm not blaming folks who were angry for what has ensued since That Day, let me be clear.

i do think that unfortunately we had an administration in power that was ready to manipulate the emotions of many people to justify some pretty heinous deeds.

Auguste said...

By the way, just in case thise needs saying -

Just because someone's to the right of me certainly doesn't make them a wingnut. Just because someone's angry doesn't make them a wingnut. Heck, if someone's upset with someone else for not being angry, that doesn't even make them a wingnut.

I was really just addressing those on the right who reacted/continue to react the same way as the people on the left whom you describe - questioning the legitimacy of another's reaction. Those are who I mean when I say wingnuts. Also, Jeff G*ldst*in.

And with all those caveats in place, I'll say that I wasn't being a smartass (for once!) - that there's a large contingent who think that being mad - mad enough to kill - is a prerequisite for being an American.

Auguste said...

I'll say that I wasn't being a smartass

Snarky, though, and unserious in tone.

ilyka said...

there's a large contingent who think that being mad - mad enough to kill - is a prerequisite for being an American.

Yup. You have to be at least mad enough to post faked photos of some guy pissing on a Koran, because really, if you aren't angry enough to slag off an entire religion, you probably shouldn't be able to vote, Stalinist.

This is also known as Reason #1 of why I left mu.nu.

JD said...

Complete ditto to Chris Clarke's comment.

And Ilyka knows from conversations way back, I had full-blown Bush Derangement Syndrome long before he was elected. (I only got over it around the time the rest of the country caught on.) Yet, shortly after 9/11 I was praying for the bastard, and thinking, "Gee, maybe I'll be glad he's the President."

Pissed it all away, indeed.

belledame222 said...

yup.

well, i never did hold out much hope, but for about fifteen minutes there i was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

that kind of ended when he kept just not showing up, like, at all.

and then finally the actual speech--not the WE CAN HEAR YOU crap when he -finally- got his useless ass over here, but the televised one from the undisclosed location, you know: he seriously looked like he was crapping himself.

kind of not really what you want to see, esp. from later self-styled Fearless Leader;

and, well, it all went downhill from there, what with the actual steps he/they took, in so many ways. yes indeedy: i feel SO much safer now. you betcha.

the other part of it was, -Giuliani,- complex and ratfuck-y as he is, did redeem himself a lot in those first awful days at least as morale-booster. yeah, you can still fault him for a fuck of a lot, and my cynicism came back by the time elections rolled around again (not for a lot of people, though, clearly, else we'd have had no Bloomberg, i expect; or, well, hindsight, who knows).

but seriously, it was like night and day. even with such -helpful- advice as "buy something," even with, well, everything. at least he was here and, for those days, was one of us.

Bush was then, and always has been, a Potemkin president.

and the reason, i submit, people rallied around him so desperately is because they NEEDED to see what so patently -wasn't- there: genuine leadership.

Chauncey Gardner, red courtesy telephone for you.

well, no; Chauncey was kind of a nice guy, really, if a cipher.

Darleen said...

Maybe it's because I'm old, but I still don't get this "the world loved us and Bu$Hitler pissed it all away" because the world never did "love us" ... not for more than 15 minutes, a carton of cigs and a few chocolate bars.

How many times must I hear people talk about the famous "We are all Americans" essay that ran in Le Monde on 9/12/01 as "proof" that good will was squandered? Because it shows the people saying it never FUCKING READ IT. Not even half way through and we get the nuanced Euro shit that, translated into sympathy for a rape victim goes "We feel real sorry for you, honey. But you shouldn't be wearing such a short skirt, and you don't have the best reputation either."

I'm still angry about 9/11. Not the white-hot anger I felt at the time. Its a more hardened, cold steel anger. It's the anger I feel when I listen to people like Mike Farrell ramble on about poor mis-understood Tookey Williams but Mikey not only couldn't name ONE of Tookey's victims but then started cussing out the people who asked him about it. It's the cold anger I feel when I read Jhimmi Carter holding Jews ... er ... Israel totally responsible for war with Hezbollah.

Segments of Western Civ have gone gangrene with multiculturalist chic and now America is only loved for the brief times it is "the victim". That's what the so-called "good will of the world" was about. It was the faux sympathy by much of the elite of the world while they snickered behind their hands on how we deserved being brought down a notch or two. While in places like Jerusalem the Arabs danced in the streets, shooting guns and handing out sweets in celebration.

There is only two choices on why we haven't been hit again on American soil after 9/11 ... either one believes that Islamist terrorists have just decided that was that and we are NOT a target anymore (which is kind of belied by things like the liquid-explosives plot) or that the Bush Admin, not perfect, has done something right enough security wise that the terrorists have just figured to hit softer targets...in England, Spain, India and elsewheres.

But the President won't get the credit because...well he squandered, didn't he?

And when the next terrorist attack does come (and it will... there is no such thing as perfect security...elsewise I'd be out of a job at the courthouse)... the President will be held responsible for it. Completely. No one will blame the terrorists because ...well, we don't expect any better from them. They can be as evil (oh sorry... Evil is a no no term for the enlightened)...they can be as mis-behaving as they want..they can't help themselves, they don't know any better and they have been oppressed by America (and Israel).

But we are held to DIFFERENT standard. The golden utopian one, when any misstep, any miscalculation, any perceived failing is PROOF that America is a hypocritical fraud!

All of this. All of it makes me both angry and sad. It all comes from the same place. It is the wedge between those of us that see the awesome promise and good of America despite her flaws and those of us that believe the flaws mean that America is a fraud.

I worry, too. Because I have a real stake in the future. My children, my grandchildren. I'm not willing to give up, to stop being angry, at the ones who are truly and solely responsible for 9/11.

Radical Islamic ideology. It is as real a threat to our century as fascism/nazism was a threat to our country in the last century...something we ignored until Pearl Harbor.

Never again.

Darleen said...

BTW, belled?

You'll be happy, I'm sure, to learn that Oliver Stone is going to repent his last movie and attempt to earn back his far-left creds with a movie he is contemplating making presenting 9/11 as a US government conspiracy.

Guess you can unfuck him now, right?

belledame222 said...

Guess again. I've never liked him. I find him bombastic and annoying; and frankly i had no idea what if anything the ideological slant of this last pic was supposed to have what i am saying is it is TOO GODDAM SOON, i saw the fucking thing for myself, i do not want to see yet another bloody MOW made out of this, the previews themselves sent me into hives and foaming.

and by the way: you know what "assume" does, don't you?

belledame222 said...

>Radical Islamic ideology. It is as real a threat to our century as fascism/nazism was a threat to our country in the last century

Funny; see, while I agree that that stuff is bloody pernicious, also, I -personally-, living here, feel a lot more directly threatened by radical theocratic Christian ideology.

and that generally speaking, the best way to keep from driving yet more and MORE people to radicalism is not to keep right on bombing the shit out of them and their homes and their sons and daughters and parents and grandparents and husbands and wives and infants. among other things which make That Day, awful as it was, look like a walk in the park, and happen Over There to Those People every goddam day and has been happening for the last 3+ years.

wacky notion, i realize, seeing as how Those People are not like you and I but have sticky black ichor running through their veins, and all. nonetheless.

belledame222 said...

and it's funny, you know: personally, I do actually believe in evil. Yeah. Liberal, secular-pagan, relativistic, Enlightenment-believing me. I do believe in morals. Too.

and I still think this war was an utter and complete fucking mistake; and that while most people are simply acting out of fear, in -some- cases, the willful and persistent refusal to see -just how much suffering we're causing?- In the name of whatever the fuck ideology it's supposed to be? Project for a New American Century (no, no intimations of "Thousand-Year Reich" there), is it?

Yes. Evil. That, too.

Just as much as Bin Laden.

Whom I'm sure that going after Saddam Motherfucking Hussein was the best way in which to bring him (who?) to justice, Bin (who?) Ladin, -and- spread peace and justice and safety, cause, well, check it out!!

belledame222 said...

>There is only two choices on why we haven't been hit again on American soil after 9/11 ... either one believes that Islamist terrorists have just decided that was that and we are NOT a target anymore (which is kind of belied by things like the liquid-explosives plot) or that the Bush Admin, not perfect, has done something right enough security wise that the terrorists have just figured to hit softer targets...in England, Spain, India and elsewheres.>

Uh, wrong again: there are one other possibility: *it just hasn't happened yet.*

9/11 took some planning, you know. They bide their time, those people; they would appear, at least the planners of such events, if not the actual creep-sad saps who carried them out, to be capable of looooooooong patience; this is one way in which they would appear to be fundamentally different from us.

And, okay, let's ignore how 9/11 happened under Dubya's watch in the damn first place; eight months into his tenure and hot on the little heels of a month-long vacation. Hey. He's done real good to make up for it, right?

Well. And then there was Katrina; and boy, you know, if there's one thing that just fills me up with confidence in Fearless Leader being prepared for any eventuality, it was how that was handled, or rather wasn't.

Yessiree Bob. He's doing a heckuva job!

...oh, what's the bloody use?

Darleen said...

I -personally-, living here, feel a lot more directly threatened by radical theocratic Christian ideology.

:::sigh:::

I was going to patiently refute/challenge each boilerplate "point" you tossed out, belled, but why? That statement alone demonstrates you are just not serious.

belledame222 said...

Yep. That's me. Not serious at all. You're quite right, darleen: truly, it's not worth it.

Darleen said...

Tell you what, belled, when a few Baptists strap C4 around their waists and blow themselves up on Pirates of the Carribean, we'll talk.

You might want to familiarize yourself with what happened at UNC-Chapel Hill or in Seattle.

belledame222 said...

nah, they don't tend to blow -themselves- up so much; just, you know, shoot abortion doctors, firebomb abortion clinics and gay nightclubs, beat the living crap out of their kids and call it "discipline," in some cases write screeds that look one fuck of a lot like a how-to-create-yer-own "Handmaid's Tale" (google R. Rushdoony sometime, since we're apparently giving each other recommendations here), and oh yeah, provide justifications for this COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY BULLSHIT WAR via appeals to, yes, "crusades."

But you know: really, not interested in some sort of Theocratic Queen For A Day, here: they -all- suck.

MURDEROUS FUNDAMENTALIST THUNDERDOME!! TWO ANGRY DESERT GODS AND ALL THEIR LOOPIER FOLLOWERS ENTER!! NO ONE LEAVES!!

and here I am, stuck in the middle, with, um, well...

why am I even talking to you, anyway?

belledame222 said...

oh, and darleen? the whole "kikes" business? still not on. I don't care how much smite-thine-enemies Old Testament and Talmud you can squawk in my direction, so don't even bother, 'k?

belledame222 said...

..the only real difference between say Randall Terry and Bin Laden is effectiveness, really.

and speaking of the former, isn't he running for Senate, now?

belledame222 said...

I should have said, of course,

"TWO VERY SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT MANIFESTATIONS OF THE SAME DESERT GOD ENTER!..."

three, six, what have you.

yeah. the real problem, Darleen, and you know why you feel so VERY strongly about them, don't you, isn't so much that "those people" are so very different from you and your interpretation of the Manual--murderous, irrational, brains half-fried by the desert--it's that they're all too fucking similar.


well. and I have a number of lovely, progressive, human Christians -and- Moslems on the 'roll and in my life, and would no more judge them by the lunatics peddling their hate under those names than i would adjudge all feminists (including me) by some of the nutjobs i've been engaging with lately.

but hey: who needs discernment and nuance when you've got THE BOMB, BABY? SMITE 'EM ALL!!!

belledame222 said...

...I could even add to that, "and conservatives, too." I -like- conservatives. Real ones. Conservatives actually want to, you know, -conserve- things. Maybe not necessarily emphasis or even agreement on all the things -I- want to conserve, but you know: they have, how you say? Values. Decency. It's rather -radically- different from the current gang of muderderous reactionary fuckwads doing their best to drive this country, this PLANET into the same amoral worthless shithole that abides in what passes for their souls, not to mention their die-hard mouth-breathing enablers I mean supporters.

belledame222 said...

"legitimate anger," Why, yes, you know, I believe I will have some of that, thank'ee kindly.

belledame222 said...

you see, Darleen, what you seem to be utterly failing to grasp is that Those People ALSO give a crap about their sons and daughters and grandchildren.

And that picking their lifeless bloody corpses out of the rubble that used to be their homes and lives, their children, their parents, their grandchildren, for SOME STRANGE REASON is not exactly endearing us to, you know, Those People. and -might- even be pushing them into thoughts of, oh, i don't know, REVENGE? the survivors? of the how many is it now? 47 THOUSAND (officially) dead, is it?

That whole "eye for an eye" business? First of all: it's only valued now because it was better than what came BEFORE that; i.e. a whole fucking person for an eye or a bit of property. We're supposed to have evolved a bit since then. Your purported Saviour talks a bit about such things, or so my heathen ass is given to understand.

(no, do NOT bother with the "bring not peace but a sword" business. forest: trees).

SECOND, you see, the promlem is, the PROBLEM IS, what WE'RE doing right now IS in fact "a whole fucking person for an eye."

and then we ("we") just simply CAN'T UNDERSTAND why people are getting all upset.

for fuck's sake.

belledame222 said...

>But we are held to DIFFERENT standard.

No, "we" really fucking aren't, in fact. What is happening, in fact, is exactly the opposite: we HAVE BEEN holding ourselves to a different standard, and people are calling us ("us") on it, and, like any enraged narcissist who's gotten our collective balloon-like ego jabbed, we (well, SOME OF US) can't stand it.

>those of us that see the awesome promise and good of America despite her flaws>

Keep tilting at that straw-liberal. Because as it happens, personally? like many many of My People, I -also- see awesome promise and good in the template of the founding documents, and in the people here (and elsewhere too, goddamit). Even though the "flaws," as you call them, are not trivial and cannot be brushed lightly away. Now talking flaws even in the conception and founding, yes. Yes, that's there, too. And old ghosts do come back to haunt eventually, one way or another. That's nothing to do with ideology. That's just reality. Sorry.

But right NOW, Darleen? See, the main difference between us isn't that one of us cares about this country and despairs of the people who are trying to piss it all away.

It's just that we happen to differ on who, in this country, is primarily responsible for the pissing away.

And I'm looking right at you, too, Darleen, you nasty, bigoted, knee-jerk reactionary, pugnacious little cuss.

now: kiss my big, shiny, queer, multiculti-lovin', urban, lib'rul, culturally Jewish tuchis.

belledame222 said...

"ethnically," excuse me. whatever it ONLY was. yeah: i am ONLY culturally Jewish; and yet, somehow, Darleen, some shiksa mental midget of a foaming keyboard Zionist Crusader -daring- to to not only throw around "kikes" like it's her prerogative and -then- putting it in the mouth of a woman whom, whatever my issues with her, anti-Semitism ain't one of 'em, and -then- trying to tell me that you're, what is it now? have a better grasp on this because you can read the motherfucking Talmud? on account of you really really like the part where it talks about SMITE THEM ALL! ?

did i mention the part about "bite me, hard?"

Darleen said...

Good lord, if Belled were in CA I'd hope someone would 5150 her.

I think she hit every kool-aid rant against the Bu$HitlerZionistNeoCon-and-your-little-dog-too out of the Markos fatwa.

Gotta love the autogenerated responses to years of radical Islamist terror -- repeat about handful of whacked out cult Christians - and cite the same one over and over and over..

The 9/11 terrorists were not "sad saps"... they chose evil. Period.

Adults realize that.

Not to worry much Belled. The adults in this country will attempt to save it, inspite of the Hezbollah-supporting Noam Chomsky and Tony "Israel must cease to exist" Judts and their fellow travelers and useful children. Because some of us DO know what it is to be an adult and make hard decisions, even as the children in the room scream "It's not fair you big meany!"

belledame222 said...

What the fuck are you talking about, you stupid gobshite? What talking points? The point, Darleen, is that you are a moral and intellectual midget with a fossilized sesame seed for a heart.

-and- a fucking anti-Semite.

now piss off, or I shall be forced to taunt you a second time.

belledame222 said...

"Save for the fact we are, again, looking at yet another person who finds all killing morally equivalent ... which is a moral abomination "

Yeah. Adult. -Moral.- Clearly, the -moral- position is to believe that -some peoples' grandchildren matter more than others'."

even if--ESPECIALLY if--there was NO REASON TO BE IN THAT PARTICULAR WAR IN THE GODDAM FIRST PLACE.

Hey, Darleen, I had lunch with Jesus the other day; He said to tell you that he thinks you're being a hateful cowardly vicariously bloodthirsty spiritually bankrupt fuck as well, and to knock it the fuck off, or he's gonna overturn your tables so fast it'll make your head spin.

and also: your fly's unzipped.

belledame222 said...

and, Darleen? Adults don't whine about how it's not FAIR how everyone is PICKING on poor little the most powerful goddam country in the world.

or how it's HARD WORK to do their -fucking job.- which they don't do.

nor yet resort to childish caricatures of their opponents' positions; nor yet hide their own gutlessness and venality behind a flag and a seriously misplaced Daddy figure; nor yet do they place ethnic slurs and hateful thoughts in other peoples' mouths and then, when called on it, stubbornly refuse -any- ownership of their own hate.

yeah, criticism. really rough. And demanding--hell, -asking-, politely, and then being ignored--that Fearless Leader maybe actually verify his claims before marching into war; and then, oopsie, guess we just can't find those weapons of mass destruction, haha, ain't I a kidder, anyone for golf?

What was that phrase? "Bigotry of soft expectations," was it?

Oh, whatever. You've heard it all before, no doubt; and what you haven't you can quickly replace with your own fantasies, as we've seen.

but jesus CHRIST, woman. you know, i have been -trying- to be civil here or at least, you know, ignore you, on account of I like this blog, even though on top of the "kikes" crap which you still won't even begin to own, you consistently say shit i find incredibly offensive; and yet, there you go! again and again! going out of your way to call my name; gumming my ankle with your tired-ass jingoism and bigotry.

seriously: does this sort of thing get you wet? Once more into the breach? A nice comfy safe and extremely watered-down substitute for the killing you so clearly reslish? Because if that's all this is, I have no wish to further enable you.

JackGoff said...

Oh, so Darleen, you mean where a converted Christian shot a bunch of people in Seattle, then, right? Because that's what happened, ass-stain.

JackGoff said...

Oh, and also, Jesus called me too. He said your screeds against pacifism are fucking bullshit, and he wishes you would take your head out of your ass and read Matthew 26:52.

JackGoff said...

Meh. Arguing with Darleen is like trying to tell a fundie that secular humanism has the same goals as Christ, a la the Sermon on the Mount. Darleen is a moron, will pretty much always be a moron, and will make moronic statements she can't back up with anything, like that slavery wasn't given a stamp of approval by many religious leaders who called it moral and just. Fucking stupidity.

Darleen said...

jackoff

You're a parody, right? Belled is amusing in a weird kind of way (I especially find the "shiksa" card play giggle worthy when I know I've attended Temple a hell of a lot more than her)... but your free association posts untethered by reality have a certain jeune c'est quoi

Do you write your own material, or just lift it whole from the Kosskiddies or democratic underground?

JackGoff said...

Hehe, Darlin', you woeful sucksack, I could be a parody if I wasn't actually stating facts. Too bad you're too stupid to know.

JackGoff said...

Oh, and it's je ne sais quoi.

Dumbass.

Gower said...

Let me help everyone out.

Here's a clue, both of you are repeating the same talking points both sides have been putting out for the last 5 years.

NEITHER OF YOU HAS ANY FUCKING THING NEW TO SAY.

Neither of you will convince the other of absolutely anything.

Once you realized that you could try acting like adults or you can begin accusing each other of hating Jews and descend into obscenities and making complete asses of yourself.

After 5 years it's completely predictable what people will choose to do.

belledame222 said...

>I especially find the "shiksa" card play giggle worthy when I know I've attended Temple a hell of a lot more than her

And again!

Yeah, I'm sure the British Israelites know Torah better than I do, too, but that still doesn't make 'em any less of hateful bigots.

Darleen: you don't HAVE TO GO TO FRIGGING TEMPLE TO BE OFFENDED BY "KIKE."

-and- they don't generally teach Yiddish there either.

the few fragments I got I got from my immigrant grandparents, one of whom was rejected from university on account of, you know, they had quotas.

oh, yeah: and had his name changed, on account of it was easier for all the little xenophobes (i.e. your spiritual if not actual ancestors) to pronounce.

others who were less fortunate, Jewish immigrants that is, well, if they didn't know how to read or write, they made a little circle instead of an "x" on account of they really, really didn't want to have to make something that looked like a cross.

hard to imagine why, isn't it.

"I'll make you a kikeleh," they said. "Little circle."

and thus:

THAT is what "kike" means, you woeful--

well, Ilyka wants it dialed down, so no, okay.

and Darleen, charming as your suggestion that I be carted away for my own mental health is, as it happens, although I grew up there, I do not, in fact, live in California.

I live in NEW YORK CITY.

For the last SEVEN YEARS.

Get it now?

belledame222 said...

>jeune c'est quoi

Is this supposed to be some sort of labored joke about his age, or are you really that ignorant?

belledame222 said...

well gower, it's a wide wide world full of many entertainments, should you not find sufficient from the likes of us.

per obscenities:

"You're the vulgarian, you fuck"

--Fish Called Wanda

..sums up my feelings about that sort of pecksniffery rather nicely.

belledame222 said...

I mean, yeah, I don't know, it's just terrific, really. You know more about anti-Semitism -and- being Jewish than I do because you read the Books and are foamingly defensive of Israel; this, no matter how many times people explain to you that no, in fact, really, critical of Israel's policies =! anti-Semitic -and- that in fact they find YOU really offensive.

and now, what, you know more about the meaning of that Terrible Awful Day, than I, I expect, even though I was actually LIVING HERE;

and of course all about what's really going on in that part of the world and what war is -really- like even though you've, what, never set foot out of the country is it?

Such wisdom; it overwhelms.

belledame222 said...

>and will make moronic statements she can't back up with anything, like that slavery wasn't given a stamp of approval by many religious leaders who called it moral and just.>

wait. seriously?

wait. why would i be surprised?

never mind.

JackGoff said...

Yeah, I had forgotten that Darleen is one of those people who write off everything as "Those darn kids and their loud music." Pathetic really, especially when she never offers up evidence to back her claims.

JackGoff said...

Oh, and yeah. I got into it with some of the PW fuckstains about pacifism and Darleen came along saying I was immoral and I said the morality has been used to justify bullshit oppression, like the slave trade, throughout history, to which she replied "Nyuh uh!"

JackGoff said...

Heh. Sorry, ilyka. Darleen tends to get my dander up. Lo siento.

Gower, Voice of Reason said...

When conservatives are losing an argument they wrap themselves in the flag and call the other side traitors,

when liberals are losing an argument they wrap themselves in victimization and call the other side bigots.

Really Belle are you by any chance Jewish???? Really???? Wow I had no idea...

Because you've only mentioned it like 500 times in the thread with absolutely no relevance whatsoever except that it lets you scream BIGOT at Darlene the top of your lungs.

Your grandfather was denied a higher education? My grandfather was beaten bloody by the Irish. Do you see me bringing it up in any discussion with Irish people. If I did I'd sound just as loony as you.

I'm 1/4 Jewish, 1/4 Scottish and half Norwegian. Do I get to shut down any discussion by screaming "Wah, Wah Bigot" too?

JackGoff said...

And whenever "voices of reason" have no reason to talk, they make glib statements that make it obvious that they wank to pictures of themselves.

[what the hell is blogger's deal today?]

Gower, Voice of Reason said...

And whenever an idiot really has nothing to say, he throws together the worst insult he can think of...

(usually about mastubation because it's how he spends most of his own time when he's not trying to pretend to be a feminist in the hopes it'll get him some chicks so he can cut out the mastubation)

...knowing surely his utter inability to compose an argument compensated for by putting 'fuck' in a sentence will utterly devastate his enemies.

If he's feeling extra-cosmpolitan, he uses 'wank' instead of fuck.

JackGoff said...

Thanks for proving my point, gower! Just be sure to clean up when your done. This thread is already kinda messy.

ilyka said...

"Messy" does not begin to describe. OH MY HEAVENLY DAYS.

belledame222 said...

I did warn you...

mea culpa, really; there are just, you know, these days and certain people when i decide we've been dating long enough i can skip the foreplay and go straight to the machete.

Here, though (offers towel, Clorox, sage smudge stick, hauling buckets of water).

belledame222 said...

Gower--why am I addressing you--well, I'm not, really, I suppose--there is a backstory there, albeit not a terribly interesting one. Darleen herself is rather quick to pull the "antisemite" card, as it happens; there was an earlier exchange in which I suggested that in fact putting the words "I hate kikes" into the mouth of a well-known liberal blogger (who was in fact saying no such thing) is really not on, even if one does, in fact, feel really, really strongly about Israel for one's own hard-right religio-ideological reasons.

It is even less on to respond to an actual Jewish person who tells one that no, in fact, one ONESELF is in fact being far more offensive than the supposedly antisemitic post, spavined attempt at "sarcasm" notwithstanding, to the effect that one understands such matters better because one is more learned in Torah and Talmud and some of one's best distant relatives are Jewish.

and then, well, the rest of it, here and elsewhere, and sooner or later...yeah. I've been insulating myself from this particular flavor of whatever-it-is for a while; perhaps it's just time i got used to it again. Or, well, not, really.

frankly, "realness" debates are annoying enough, and i don't often engage in them at all if I can help it; but really, enough already. I mean, i can probably ignore that -or- the constant sniping -or- the nasty-near-trolling i've frequently witnessed elsewhere -or- the bloodthirsty slant on politics which already gives me hives; but, well, sometimes there is let's say a confluence.

and i swear like a sailor even on my best days; i like sailors.

(stops, shakes herself, goes to refill bucket)

belledame222 said...

So, anyway: anger. Yeah, I'd say I had some left to process. Mm.

just look at it as group therapy. Or, you know, a cross between group therapy and field hockey. something like that.