tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29906474.post115544237127281332..comments2023-12-22T03:20:29.631-07:00Comments on Ilyka Damen: Lauren Lights a Matchilykahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01286988732452435904noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29906474.post-1155924664789304452006-08-18T12:11:00.000-06:002006-08-18T12:11:00.000-06:00To preface, I am not unfond of children. I don't h...To preface, I am not unfond of children. I don't have any- and to be honest, anything above and beyond caring for Mr. Catface is far too much of a burden for me at this point in my life. However, I have, in the past, done my share of waitressing at "family oriented" restaurants. Which, you know, kind of made me want to slit my throat, and is why I'd never work at one again.<BR/><BR/>Why? Because the parents who <I>do</I> allow their children to act like brats usually think said children are the most adorable things in the world. "Oh! He wants to make friends!" a mother once squealed after her darling five year old pelted me with cottage cheese (which I loathe). Also, more than not, the kids would make a ridiculous mess- drawing on tables etc., throwing food, etc.- and the parents would leave a crappy tip. Presumably because my real tip was the honor of being in their precious childrens presence for two hours. But- that's what you get for working at those restaurants.<BR/><BR/>What I really don't get, however, is why on earth I see, every night, children out and about at bus stops and walking down the street with their parents at 2am. My bedtime was 7:00 until I was like, 9 or something, and then went up incrementally by half hours from then. <BR/><BR/>Oh- also- need I mention the fact that you apparently have to bring a child with you to get into Chuck E. Cheese? An utter travesty for skee-ball fanatics everywhere.Legacy Userhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15499391490749022204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29906474.post-1155840864540793512006-08-17T12:54:00.000-06:002006-08-17T12:54:00.000-06:00Ron Sullivan: But there's your cycle.I agree with ...Ron Sullivan:<BR/><I> But there's your cycle.</I><BR/><BR/>I agree with almost everything you say here, Ron. But I do want to quibble with this just the tiniest little bit before Ilyka turns out the lights on the thread.<BR/><BR/>Someone with a kid behaved like a jerk to the woman in the diner. The woman in the diner behaved like a jerk to me and my family. That's not a cycle, that's two people being jerks to people who'd done nothing to deserve it.<BR/><BR/>I really do think we make a mistake by framing this as breeders against non-breeders, or people who want piece and quiet against people who have kids. Public spaces are for everyone. We all have an obligation to behave non-disruptively in public spaces, but part of behaving non-disruptively is accepting small disruptions good-naturedly, and welcoming all sorts of folks into shared spaces. (I say a lot more about this on my own blog, <A HREF="http://brooklynite.livejournal.com/92456.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29906474.post-1155835403069207502006-08-17T11:23:00.000-06:002006-08-17T11:23:00.000-06:00Brooklynite: ... I don't think it's surprising tha...Brooklynite: <I>... I don't think it's surprising that my anger at her spills over onto people who make anti-kid comments at places like this. </I><BR/><BR/>Of course, it's likely that woman's anger at having had meals, movies, and the like disrupted by some darling's E-above-high-C wailing for five minutes or so the evening before was spilling over onto you and your baby. No, I don't make a habit of scowling at quiet infants myself; I'm good at keeping a straight face. I even have a few tricks to quiet them down: harmless, even soothing tricks. But there's your cycle.<BR/><BR/>Rob, the "selfish ass" who picks up the slack at work, has a lot of company. I've been there, and I've seen it at work for thirty years or so. Family Values evidently includes, and I'm quoting directly though I'm munging, "X needs to have the holidays off because she/he has a <I>family</I>!" Meaning kids, of course, as nobody else counts as "family." I'm talking about a pool of hospital nurses here; holidays need staffing, period. But after a few years being bumped like this, of not having the option to <I>volunteer</I> for that allegedly coveted holiday pay, one begins to get impatient. Who'll wipe your ass when you get old? If it's a holiday, probably someone without kids. Your own kids will of course be home having a family holiday with your grandkids. Maybe they'll visit at 3PM. <BR/><BR/>ab: <I>Do you really think that anyone has the right to not be "bothered" or "irritated" or "annoyed" by something in the public square?</I><BR/><BR/>Compare and contrast: your uncle not wanting to see gray-haird women and that guy nattering about the Dove ads versus you or me not wanting to be annoyed by catcalls when walking across the square, past the infamous construction site, past the titty bar. Or by seeing some pathetic dick's pathetic dick when he flashes it on the street. Lots of space for discussion there. Imagine the Hollaback NYC Girls on the case. Hmm. <BR/><BR/>Personally, what gets to me is flying messy stuff (food, typically) or noise levels distinctly above the ambient noise in the space. Especially that high-pitched shriek that can mean anything from "My arm just got cut off" to "Ooo, it's PINK" and the whole range in between. I thought that would get less grating as I got older and began to lose some of the high-end hearing range, but in fact it's worse. Both physically painful and still a strong pull on my Emergency! responses. Ow. What I'm doing in my imagination when I hear that is dumping a bucket of water over the little siren and saying, "Oh, I'm sorry! I thought you were on fire."<BR/><BR/>I'll save the people shoving strollers into traffic to stop it, and into my tendons at the museum, for another rant. Happens metaphorically, too, as witness that snotty remark to zuzu from her sister in the original topic over there.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29906474.post-1155748768663220132006-08-16T11:19:00.000-06:002006-08-16T11:19:00.000-06:00I agree with you that adults should be entitled to...I agree with you that adults should be entitled to time without kids in certain places. And if there are kids there, then you should still be free to do or say whatever you want without feeling the need to self-edit.<BR/><BR/>Way back when, there used to be a consensus as to what behavior was appropriate in public. These days, there are as many parenting philosophies as there are parents and heaven forbid you try to inflict your parenting style on someone elses child. Also, having a child makes some people think that it raises them above the standards of decent social conduct and exempts them from having to consider the feelings of others, but these people were selfish shits to begin with.<BR/><BR/>To be fair to some parents, though, people without kids have become so sensitized by out of control kids (and rightly so) that parents who actually care about public behavior can't bring their kids anywhere without receiving dozens of scornful looks simply because they have kids. Unfortunately, it takes years and a lot of tough love to make these little people palatable to the rest of society. Some of us are really trying and do understand that not everyone is as enamored and tolerant of our kids as we are. But a few bad apples spoil the whole barrel.velvethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14809107667582647222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29906474.post-1155677431950761012006-08-15T15:30:00.000-06:002006-08-15T15:30:00.000-06:00dnp>I think she's probably familiar with every bla...dnp>I think she's probably familiar with every blade of grass in the pasture of the funny farm<BR/><BR/>Okay, that's a keeper. thanks!belledame222https://www.blogger.com/profile/13947289856453172848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29906474.post-1155673027223606452006-08-15T14:17:00.000-06:002006-08-15T14:17:00.000-06:00p.s. My children were the ones who suggested that...p.s. My children were the ones who suggested that we should no longer dine with two families in our neighborhood. "Their kids are brats, Mom," said my (now) 12-year-old daughter after the last dinner we had with these families, when my children sat at the table and ate, and theirs ran around the table, annoyed other patrons, threw things on the floor, CLIMBED A TREE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE PATIO (A TREE, FOR THE LOVE OF PETE), and basically acted like jerks.<BR/><BR/>My kids and I sat there stunned and amazed. My daughter followed up her comment with: "You'd kill us if we acted like that."<BR/><BR/>Yeah. Perhaps. Grounding, at the least.Troublehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16553273498093394669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29906474.post-1155672792324959682006-08-15T14:13:00.000-06:002006-08-15T14:13:00.000-06:00We took my daughter, in a beautiful velvet dress, ...We took my daughter, in a beautiful velvet dress, to see the Nutcracker (live) when she was four. She was beautifully behaved, and several adults complimented us on how quiet and mannerly she was. But, I'm an old-fashioned parent, and the performance was preceded by a great deal of work by her mother to teach her how ladies conduct themselves in public.<BR/><BR/>My ex and I started eating in restaurants with our children when they were babies at my mom's advice. She told me that if we waited until they were in elementary school to take them out to eat, they might succeed in never learning how to behave in restaurants.<BR/><BR/>My children were taught to use a napkin and fork, to put the napkin in their lap, to sit still in their chair, and to eat using good table manners. They say "please" and "thank you." Even when they were in a high chair, they were not allowed to cause a ruckus, get up and prance around like little savages, or throw things on the floor.<BR/><BR/>Frankly, I take a great deal of pride in knowing that when my daughter is in college or in the job force, she will know how to conduct herself properly, because her mother taught her.<BR/><BR/>After all, that is one of my jobs. <BR/><BR/>It is not so much of an issue to have children in public places, the issue is in parents teaching their children how to behave properly so as to avoid being a nuisance.<BR/><BR/>And i do think that other people have a right to go to dinner in a nice restaurant without having it disrupted by an unruly child.<BR/><BR/>In fact, we have friends with whom we will no longer go to dinner because their children are such a pain in the arse to be around. It's a shame, really, because the kids deserve better.<BR/><BR/>And, I partially believe it is due to parents being at a loss as to how to discipline their children, and how to distinguish between what is normal child behavior, and the type of behavior that children should really be learning.<BR/><BR/>That probably makes me sound terribly old-fashioned and archaic and I will admit in some regards, I am. My daughter was spanked for throwing temper tantrums when she was 2, which a well-meaning social worker told me might cause permanent damage. <BR/><BR/>However, it is my considered opinion that one of the problems at the root of all of this is self-indulgence. The thing about the mommy bloggers that annoys me is the same thing about badly behaved children that annoys me...it is this fascination with every minutiae of child-rearing. and, the idea that everyone else should be as namby pamby, adoring, fascinated, and enthralled with your child as you are.<BR/><BR/>You don't really have to be the bad guy, or teach your children to behave in a socially appropriate way. They should be free to express themselves in whatever way they wish, and the rest of us, if we are annoyed by your children whirling around a restaurant like a dervish, are just big meanies.<BR/><BR/>Oh, and haters. Don't forget the hater part.Troublehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16553273498093394669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29906474.post-1155644215997161812006-08-15T06:16:00.000-06:002006-08-15T06:16:00.000-06:00Kids belong in the public square when it's somethi...<I> Kids belong in the public square when it's something they'll like and understand </I><BR/><BR/>My three-year-old's favorite movie is King Kong. Her favorite musician is Bob Marley. She dressed as Jane Goodall for the last costume party she went to.<BR/><BR/>I say all this not to brag about my beautiful precocious wonderful daughter --- though I can do that too, if you like --- but to point out that you have a limited grasp of what children "like and understand." Advocate restricting my child's cultural options if you like, but don't pretend that you're merely saving her from being subjected to things she doesn't like or understand.<BR/><BR/>If the usher refuses entry to my child the next time I take her to a museum or concert, I will not throw a hissy fit. If you, however, whine or roll your eyes, I'll invite you to go fuck yourself.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29906474.post-1155618744158172002006-08-14T23:12:00.000-06:002006-08-14T23:12:00.000-06:00who or what exactly is NYMOM, anyway?I wasn't too ...<I>who or what exactly is NYMOM, anyway?</I><BR/><BR/>I wasn't too familiar with her before this, but best I can tell, she seems to consider herself a feminist even though what she advocates seems to be that women are superior to men by virtue of their being able to give birth. Also, I think she's probably familiar with every blade of grass in the pasture of the funny farm.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, she finally got banned, so yay.ilykahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01286988732452435904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29906474.post-1155617304813204222006-08-14T22:48:00.000-06:002006-08-14T22:48:00.000-06:00I did not dress up, stand in line, put on my most ...<I>I did not dress up, stand in line, put on my most expensive dress and shoes and pay 200 for my evening to hear your 3 year old throw a tantrum.</I><BR/><BR/>Oh great, jrochest: All across the internets, indignant mothers just started drafting posts explaining that their 3-year-olds are very well-behaved and how dare you judge their impeccable children by the occasional, chance, so-rare it-may-as-well-be-nonexistent, tantrumming 3-year-old.<BR/><BR/>This whole thing is starting to sound like a classic bad driver problem: Everyone in a large urban area with a lengthy commute to work complains about bad drivers. EVERYONE. And yet some of those complaining must be bad drivers themselves in order for there to be so many complaints.<BR/><BR/>But does anyone cop to that? Does anyone say, "That's right, I am the bad driver who cut you off at the exit ramp last Wednesday?" When I drove over an exit ramp median because I was stupidly racing some douchebag in a Geo Metro, causing $1000 worth of damage to the underside of my car, did I run around telling everyone what a dangerous driver I was? Shit, no. I told everyone how I sure showed that asshole in the Metro. I can't decide if I should be shot for driving that recklessly or for bragging about <I>winning a race against a Geo Metro</I>, but either way I was clearly the asshole.<BR/><BR/>It's just that no one wants to cop to being the asshole. And as several mothers have mentioned, here and at Feministe, it's no wonder. We've got a media devoted to dishing guilt, rapidly changing concepts of parenting and family, shitty support systems, and my personal favorite, parents who like to get a leg up by dragging other parents down. Throw in people like you and me who say "Also, please don't take your toddler to see Ibsen" and it's no wonder people get defensive. We're like the icing on the guilt cake.ilykahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01286988732452435904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29906474.post-1155610646914036602006-08-14T20:57:00.000-06:002006-08-14T20:57:00.000-06:00Yes, I think bars should be child-free zones. Ditt...Yes, I think bars should be child-free zones. Ditto adult-oriented movies, adult-oriented theatre, all concerts except for bubble-gum pop and Raffi, and very expensive restaurants. And yes, this is for entirely selfish reasons: I did not dress up, stand in line, put on my most expensive dress and shoes and pay 200 for my evening to hear your 3 year old throw a tantrum. Frankly, when you do the same you don't want to hear someone else's 3 year old throw a tantrum either. <BR/><BR/>Kids belong in the public square when it's something they'll like and understand: when I go to a Pixar movie, the park, a fair or a mall I expect 3 year olds. When I go to a performance of Ibsen's _Ghosts_, I do not. Therefore, when the nice usher will not let you bring your toddler into the theatre do not pitch a hissy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29906474.post-1155605933744417612006-08-14T19:38:00.000-06:002006-08-14T19:38:00.000-06:00...okay, I just read through some of that. um. w......okay, I just read through some of that. um. who or what exactly is NYMOM, anyway?belledame222https://www.blogger.com/profile/13947289856453172848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29906474.post-1155601163764138742006-08-14T18:19:00.000-06:002006-08-14T18:19:00.000-06:00yeah; that question, as so many, comes back to the...yeah; that question, as so many, comes back to the grey area of the "commons."<BR/><BR/>I dunno about a right per se; but I do think it'd be good for everyone involved--the other people in the movie/restaurant/store/what have you as well as the kids themselves, if the parents were at least doing their best to make sure their offspring grow up into more or less socialized beings. <BR/><BR/>o'course if the parents -themselves- aren't too socialized, which, frankly, is not that uncommon, then, well, there you are.belledame222https://www.blogger.com/profile/13947289856453172848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29906474.post-1155587927768016192006-08-14T14:38:00.000-06:002006-08-14T14:38:00.000-06:00I'm actually fairly curious what you think, Ilyka....<I>I'm actually fairly curious what you think, Ilyka.</I><BR/><BR/>Oh just damn you people, with your excellent thought-provoking questions! What do you think I keep this weblog for, WRITING? THINKING? Honestly.<BR/><BR/>(I'm kidding, if that's not immediately apparent.)<BR/><BR/>I started to reply to this and it got into multiple paragraphs (few of which were actually coherent) immediately. Do you mind if I try to turn my response into a post?<BR/><BR/>The short version, though: I don't think I would claim a "right" not to be inconvenienced by children. That sounds too spoiled, entitled, whiny, and yeah, selfish.<BR/><BR/>Oh, and Kaethe, fair warning: I'm going to crib off <A HREF="http://aeandsometimesa.blogspot.com/2006/08/it-takes-attitude-and-some.html" REL="nofollow">your post</A> a lot, I think. You brought up some excellent points in it. Thank you for alerting me to it.ilykahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01286988732452435904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29906474.post-1155586528293222282006-08-14T14:15:00.000-06:002006-08-14T14:15:00.000-06:00You know, I'm a 24-year-old without children, and ...You know, I'm a 24-year-old without children, and when I started reading that thread on feministe, I thought I was firmly on the side of zuzu and others who said, 'I don't like kids but it's sexist to say all women have to.' I don't go all googly-eyed over babies, and I get irritated when someone says something like "oh WHEN you have children you'll understand" or "you'll change your mind eventually!"<BR/><BR/>After having read through the whole thing, I couldn't help noticing one theme kept coming up, though: this idea that adults have the right to not be bothered by kids acting inappropriately. (Sometimes articulated as, "I don't have a problem with kids as long as parents keep control of them in public spaces.") And I keep turning it over in my mind--I mean, at first blush, it sounds good, but something about that just isn't quite square--and I'm not sure I agree with that sentiment at all, actually. <BR/><BR/>Do you really think that anyone has the right to not be "bothered" or "irritated" or "annoyed" by something in the public square? I mean, how is that any different Roeper saying that the Dove ad campaign should be taken down because he had a right to not be annoyed by looking at fat chicks in their underwear on the street? Or my uncle telling me that women with gray hair shouldn't be allowed to work out in his gym, because gray hair is "not what the buying public wants"?<BR/><BR/>I'm actually fairly curious what you think, Ilyka. I mean, maybe there is a difference--I just can't think of one. And I'm starting to think the acrimony might stem more from the difference between saying that one gets irritated by loud children while still recognizing that they have a right to be pretty much anywhere that the law does not prohibit them from being, and saying that "kids should never be allowed in [X]", where [X] is the one place you've decided should be adult-only.<BR/><BR/>Just some thoughts.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29906474.post-1155580264056571232006-08-14T12:31:00.000-06:002006-08-14T12:31:00.000-06:00Hmmmm.I've spent my career working with "other peo...Hmmmm.<BR/><BR/>I've spent my career working with "other people's children" (tm), and not the good ones, either, the throw-away thuggish types.<BR/><BR/>When I became pregnant with my daughter, I cried and was frankly depressed for several months. I knew my life, such as it was, had now irrevocably entered a new phase.<BR/><BR/>I like kids. I prefer mine to other people's, though I do like other people's children on a selective basis. I am the mom on the street whose house is always literally full of children, who keeps extra popsicles in the freezer, and who keeps extra kids for dinner at my house. <BR/><BR/>Having said that...Being a mom has made me LESS TOLERANT of bad parents, rather than more tolerant. I understood the significance of having children. Children don't come to us fully socialized, and then adults muck them up, oh, far from it. They come out of the womb as little mammalian animals and it is the thankless job of parents to humanize them into something fit for public consumption.<BR/><BR/>I am certainly not above fisking a parent for allowing her child to run amock in some public adult place, or kick the back of my seat on an airplane. I call children down at random and force them to behave in public places, even if I don't know them. My kids, being proper southern children, say "yes, ma'am" and "no, ma'am" and are capable of sitting at a table in a restaurant, behaving themselves, until the meal is concluded. I do not expect a restaurant to include a jungle gym because I am unable to police my children. it annoys the hell out of me when parents with toddlers allow said toddlers to violate my space (or that of my family) in a restaurant or comparable business by running around like whirling dervishes. I am fully capable of turning a stonelike and disapproving face on the parents in question and even proclaiming to my children audibly: "We don't act like that in restaurants."<BR/><BR/>Sometimes I talk about my kids on my blog, sometimes not. It largely depends upon how the mood hits me. I can go weeks without mentioning them and then talk about them nonstop for several days in a row.<BR/><BR/>Being a mother is not the sum total of my existence. I think no less of other people without children (though I do sometimes envy their free time and disposable income). I love my kids, but I look forward to free weekends I have when they are at their dads and I can pretend to be childless and unencumbered. I would never choose a different life, but I think we are all entitled to choose what our life will look like without being called names.Troublehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16553273498093394669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29906474.post-1155576504863958752006-08-14T11:28:00.000-06:002006-08-14T11:28:00.000-06:00My comment grew to long so I posted it at my place...My comment grew to long so I posted it at <A HREF="http://aeandsometimesa.blogspot.com/2006/08/it-takes-attitude-and-some.html" REL="nofollow">my place</A>.Kaethehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01138988651491869091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29906474.post-1155574517816801162006-08-14T10:55:00.000-06:002006-08-14T10:55:00.000-06:00It really all boils down to MYOB. And then everyo...It really all boils down to MYOB. And then everyone can have their own opinion without fear of reprisals.<BR/><BR/>But I have a tendency to oversimplify, don't I? Aheh.margilowryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15495095577345811751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29906474.post-1155573670613247532006-08-14T10:41:00.000-06:002006-08-14T10:41:00.000-06:00A couple of thoughts.First, if the parents who too...A couple of thoughts.<BR/><BR/>First, if the parents who took their kid to a bar were complaining about other folks cursing or whatever, that's not bad parenting --- that's one adult being an asshole to another adult. If you take your kid to a place that's populated by grownups, you have no right to demand that the grownups there accommodate their behavior to your kid.<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, if the parents just took their kid to the bar, I don't see why they should get any shit for it. Maybe their sitter bailed at the last minute, and this was their only chance to see their best friend from high school who was visiting from out of town. Maybe the kid's mom was in a band that had a gig at the bar that night, and they'd planned a special night out to see her play. <BR/><BR/>I take my kid places most kids don't go. I don't demand accommodation, but I expect respect. If I'm not bothering you, don't bother me. Which brings me to...<BR/><BR/>My daughter was delivered by midwives in a birthing center. Because of complications after the birth, we wound up cooped up in the room for a day and a half. When my wife felt well enough to go out, we bundled the kid up and strolled down the street to a diner. It was the first sunlight or fresh air we'd seen in two days. We walked into the diner and a woman at the next table started complaining about the kid. She kept muttering and whining to the waitstaff all through our meal --- while the kid slept.<BR/><BR/>We did nothing to disrupt this woman's meal. She, however, completely disrupted ours. I think it's fair for me to have been mad at that woman --- I'm still mad at her, a little, today --- and I don't think it's surprising that my anger at her spills over onto people who make anti-kid comments at places like this. (There's a lot of stuff said on feminist blogs that's critical of parents without being anti-kid --- much of which I agree with, frankly. But there's a lot of stuff that's anti-kid, too.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29906474.post-1155568659121344882006-08-14T09:17:00.000-06:002006-08-14T09:17:00.000-06:00" don't want to put words into her mouth, but for ..." don't want to put words into her mouth, but for me, identifying as a nonparent while having the nerve to object to some things that some parents do is just asking for an ass-kicking from most parents sometimes. "<BR/><BR/>Well, Ilyka, I'm a new enough parent to remember what life was like before two aliens took up residence in my home.<BR/><BR/>What I objected to as a childless (and, when they were below a certain age, borderline child-hating) adult is pretty much what I object to as a parent. Unwillingness to say no, basically.<BR/><BR/>So I have absolutely no problem with the childless complaining about children.<BR/><BR/>What I have now is a little more sympathy. When I see a kid having a meltdown, I don't instantly think "bad parent", I think, "I wonder what drove the parent to go out when the kid is tired, and obviously should be home". I look at the situation, and sometimes it's a harried single mom or dad, and sometimes it's a Yuppie couple oblivious to the needs of anyone else, including their own children. If it's the latter case, then I go ahead and think "bad parent".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29906474.post-1155501931681803162006-08-13T14:45:00.000-06:002006-08-13T14:45:00.000-06:00Amanda said, "...it makes me wonder if the people ...Amanda said, "...it makes me wonder if the people squalling about anti-child prejudice are just a vocal minority."<BR/><BR/>I think that's about right. I'm a parent, and I certainly don't resent adults having adult space -- I partake of it myself as often as I'm able.<BR/><BR/>There's no denying that having children is a life-changing experience. But I personally think the folks who make it the sole focal point of their existence from that day forward are unhealthily obsessed. They do their children, spouses, friends and community a disservice.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29906474.post-1155497011766120372006-08-13T13:23:00.001-06:002006-08-13T13:23:00.001-06:00I think you're right, lubu.that said, i do think t...I think you're right, lubu.<BR/><BR/>that said, i do think that some of the more obnoxious behaviors from both parents and non-parents come from entitled yuppies who simply can't believe they have to share their space with/accomodate -those people.-belledame222https://www.blogger.com/profile/13947289856453172848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29906474.post-1155495312661280812006-08-13T12:55:00.000-06:002006-08-13T12:55:00.000-06:00Darleen, I live in Illinois, and there are vast di...Darleen, I live in Illinois, and there are vast differences in funding of the school districts. Certain suburban high schools in the Chicago collar counties are more luxurious than downstate colleges; meanwhile, I remember not too long ago when East St. Louis high school students staged a walkout protest to draw attention to the fact they hadn't had functional indoor plumbing in a while, and they were tired of having to trot out to the port-a-johns. The kids talked about not being able to get credit for their science classes, because they didn't have a lab to work in. That's all the way <B>wrong</B>.<BR/><BR/>I think that unequal funding of public schools is an abomination. It's morally wrong, period. <BR/><BR/>And "freedom of association" doesn't mean diddly if you don't have the cash to back it up. There are losing parties on the other end of segregation and/or gentrification, and those folks deserve better than "huh. must suck to be you."La Lubuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17237426607765838365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29906474.post-1155494846240151412006-08-13T12:47:00.000-06:002006-08-13T12:47:00.000-06:00We live downtown, in a diverse and eclectic neighb...We live downtown, in a diverse and eclectic neighborhood, on a street where at least five or more of my neighbors would know, if my four year old was out alone, that he shouldn't be. By that same token, I know that if one of the elderly neighbors died or became seriously ill, many of us would be checking up on them long before there was a smell. <BR/><BR/>What's missing, in so much of this animosity and division between parents and non-parents, is community. Not as shaped by religion or politics or breast vs. bottle feeding, but simply humans living near one another. It means that when there's a half hour child tantrum in the driveway, we all recognize that it's part of living in a community but being individuals--the same as having several cats or playing music in the afternoon. There are elderly people, gay people, artists, almost all major racial groups, renters, home owners, PhDs and working class barely getting by, kids, dogs, cats and colorful houses--and we all try to respect our differences. <BR/><BR/>That community means that it's unlikely that I could abuse my child and no one would know or care (a big problem in my fair city). My child couldn't tease someone's cat or throw rocks into their yard without someone else telling him to stop it. It's unlikely that someone could park a van next door and start carrying out stuff without someone asking if they were supposed to be there. If we live in a community, are we not charged with caring for one another to a certain degree? A childless person can see the importance of educating children, a young person understands the importance of caring for our elderly. In a community, people try to express concern, not criticism. "Is everything okay, is there anything I can do to help?" is different than, "Why don't you shut your kid up, what kind of a lazy ass parent are you?" It's a give and take, not an attack and defend, process.I think that's harder to achieve on the internet, where exchanges are not made face-to-face. People feel more free to be ugly to one another. But we all still have to live near one another and share the space we've got. As a matter of fact, we have a responsiblity to do that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29906474.post-1155491477495464932006-08-13T11:51:00.000-06:002006-08-13T11:51:00.000-06:00When I was small it was quite common for strangers...<I>When I was small it was quite common for strangers to suggest I quit doing something (I have a very vivid memory of a woman in a store asking me to climb down from a railing I was trying to clamber over, because "you could fall and hurt yourself!"), and for my own mother to side with them ("do as that lady says!").</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, it was that way for me as a child as well. I think that's part of the divisiveness that goes on today. You CAN'T correct other people's children in public nowadays. The parents go absolutely apeshit. So, you suffer in silence and add another entry to your parents-haven't-a-clue file or kids-are-brats-and-can't-behave-in-public file. It doesn't feel like we're all in this together. It feels like a battleground.<BR/><BR/>Having recently made a move across the country, I can testify that it is a regional thing. I notice that children here are a wee bit better behaved than children back east. And I notice parents are a wee bit more inclined to actually do something about it when their kid starts screaming in public.<BR/><BR/>I'm not a child hater. I have interacted with toddlers on the bus. Sometimes kids are fascinated with what adults are doing, and if I were doing something outside, like fixing my bike or something and a neighborhood kid wanted to stop by for a chat, I wouldn't care. But when kids are totally out of control, disrespectful (you're about as likely to have the kid cuss you out as the parent when you correct one in public), and a nuisance, I want to be able to go somewhere to get the hell away from them.Marcyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13775487518984393712noreply@blogger.com